Cyril Smith/Edgar Peacock Sidecar

[Katzen]

Guys and/or Ladies,

Am looking for information and photos of the Reynolds framed sidecar Cyril Smith raced in '58 and early '59, until he retired and sold it to Edgar Peacock. It was built by Ken Sprayson, and originally (in '58) had a "solid" rear (no suspension).

For '59 it got a more streamlined fairing and conventional swing arm rear suspension, but sometime after Edgar Peacock acquired the outfit it was returned to a solid rear. The work was so well done that although I've owned the rig for years, I've been reluctant to cut the frame to re-install rear springing. However, as it is neither "fish nor fowl" in its present state ('59 fairing with '58 frame) , I've finally decided to "bite the bullet" and return it to the 1959 sprung rear configuration (want to keep the '59 fairing). Have found a few old MCN photos from '59, and Eric Bliss kindly supplied a photo and sketch of the sprung rear which are a great help, and these, along with some of the bits that came with the outfit, are almost enough to fab up a new tail section. However, I have no idea what the swing arm pivot area looks like (in line with frame tubes/offset/gusseted..?). I've attempted to contact Ken Sprayson, but from some of the old (sprung rear) bits that came with the bike, I really don't think he was involved in this modification anyway.

So, to get to the point (finally....), I'm wondering if anyone out there has any photos (or even memories) of the rear frame/swing arm pivot area of the 1959 frame they might be willing to sell/share with me? Although I probably have enough at present to "wing it", I'd really rather do it correctly if I can.

Apologies for being so "long winded"...Thanks for anything anyone might be able to supply (PM me if you prefer).

[Eddy Wright]

I think the bike would be better handling wise left with the rigid set up. Just a thought if you intend to race it.

[Katzen]

Hi Mr. Wright,

"Thanks much", for your reply, which somewhat surprised me - at first. I then seemed to recall Cyril saying something similar, but adding the qualifier "...on smooth tracks", when asked about the change from '58 to '59. That it was in the process of being changed back to solid (never completed) seems to lend credence to your comment, and makes me wonder if some area of the chassis (swing arm pivot?) may be "lacking".

As I'm a "collector" (yeah, one of "those guys"), not a racer (realized long ago on which side of the fence I belonged...), I won't be racing it, so on track performance is not a concern. And as it's an example of several (what I feel were) significant developments/changes in the history of racing sidecar design, for my purposes I'd really like to take it back to the sprung rear - especially as that's the way Cyril last raced it.

So, although the rear frame details are still a mystery (to me, anyway), your reply has given me an idea for further enquiry that may not provide the answer I'm after, but may explain the changes over the years - one of which is a "mysterious" cutout on the LH side of the gas tank which appears to be a "notch" for an additional chair mounting tube. It seems to be in the "wrong" place (too far forward), but may have been a desperate attempt to cure some handling problems associated with the sprung rear.

Anyway, "Thanks again", for your input - which leads me to a question: Is your "solid vs sprung rear" handling comment based strictly on current experience, or do you have memories of the outfit from way back when? Just curious...

Katzen

[ianw]

Hi Katzen, can you put some pics of the bike, frame etc on here?

[tonybsa2008]

I know and am in touch with both Edgars,widow,and his brother who sponsors me,Ive also seen the letter Edgar got when he won the 1960 Scotish championship on this bike.I am sure that both of them would appreciate some recent pics of the bike,and will probably be amazed when I tell them it still survives.If there is any info you require let me know as Betty(his widow)has an extremly good recollection of the racing scene at the time.

[steve-e]

If you have problems resizing any photos to fit on here (they need to be about 1000pixels wide to upload, an issue with the software that is in development at last ) just mail any photos to me and I can post them on this thread for you. steve@steveenglish.com
Hope that helps

[Katzen]

Ianw, Tonybsa,

Thanks for your interest in my sidecar conundrum.

OK, photos: Everything relating to the outfit is in another location, so can't help at the moment.
Plan a visit next week so will try to post some if I can find a computer set up to send.

Tony, how "cool" that Edgar's widow is still around , and that you're in contact with her! As I said,
all my paperwork is in another location, and off the top of my head I don't recall who sold me the
bike. I got it through a friend from around Leicester back in the late '70s/early - mid '80s ? so if
Bett remembers it leaving around that time, it was probably to me. If so, you can tell her it looks
exactly as the last time she saw it. Managed to get a Manx for it so have most of the bits to restore
it, but as noted in my original post, just haven't had the courage to start cutting. I have taken some
more pics over the years and will pass them on, but she won't see anything new (unless it was sold
to someone else before me...).

On the chance that it did indeed come directly from Edgar, would Bett recall why it was being returned
to the solid rear configuration? Was the sprung rear handling unsatisfactory in some way, and is the
notch in the LH side of the gas tank somehow related (sidecar bracing tube)?. And (although I hate to
ask before posting any photos I have) would she by any chance have any photos of the swing arm
area of the sprung rear frame? I apologize for my "pushiness", but one of the purposes of next week's
trip is to pick up the outfit and take it to a friend to fab a new tail section before he moves his shop
(way) out east. If all this sounds like it wasn't very well planned, you're right. The shop move came
"out of the blue", and posting on this forum was a "last ditch" desperation move from which I really
didn't expect any response

So that's the situation at the moment. Will try to post the photos I have when I get to them next week.

Steve, "Thanks" for tips and offer to help with any problems. Expect I'll be taking you up on it

Katzen/Don Ludewig

[tonybsa2008]

Don,I will have a word with her on Saturday,as she lives opposite my parents,and I will see if she can answer your questions.
I know from Edgars brother(Richard)that he tried to buy the bike,probably in the late 70s,it may have been owned in this period by a guy from Spenymoor called Dave Ogle,I know Dave did own an ex Cyril Smith outfit in this period,but not sure if it was yours.

[Katzen]

Tony,

Just wrote a "long winded" reply with some history and "Thanking" you for all your trouble, but computer won't let me submit. Hope this works. Think David Ogle is fellow I got the bike from, and if so, it must have been Edgar's at one time (unless Edgar's was NOT Cyril's '59 outfit?).

Expect to be able to access photos early next week and will try to post. Say 'ello to Bett, and "Thank" her for her memories/help (hope memories are good ones).

"Thanks" again for all your efforts on something that can't be of any importance to you. Please let me know how can repay (in addition to covering any costs involved)

Don

[Helen Gibson]

You might like to contact Stan Dibben, his one-time passenger and later son-in-law. standibben@gmail.com
Tell him I sent you!

[Katzen]

Hi Helen,
Apologies for slow reply, have been on the road (no I phone ...).
"Thanks" for your post/suggestion. Will do, and will definitely tell
him you sent me as expect it will add a lot of credence..
Does your avatar's crash hat have Snell approval?
"Thanks" again!
Don

[Helen Gibson]

Don, it doesn't need approval... I never crash...

[tonybsa2008]

Hi Don,sorry for the late reply,I managed to catch up with Betty yesterday,she is pleased the bike survives,and she thinks one of her sons may have some pics when Edgar raced the bike,I will let you know if anything becomes of this.She would appreciate some pics of it now if you could.
What she did tell me is that,he agreed to buy the bike after a trip to the TT(probably in 59).
At the September meeting in Scarborough in 1960,he had a close dice with Helmut Fath for a few laps,passing and repassing each other,apparently she was stood on top of a van in the pits with half the Darlington Motor Club cheering him on!Also,she believes that this is the outfit Mathew(Maty)Bell lost his leg on at Scarborough after borrowing it off Edgar for a ride,could it be that this is when the rear end was converted back to a solid rear end?
Is your bike the Cyril Smith outfit George Odells book,pictured in the late 70s.

[steve-e]

[oldbelly]

The number 3 photo looks very much like Tom Jackson on the bike at Silloth. He rode an ex Cyril Smith bike in the 70s, with a Triumph in.