The Place

As the title says really.

Who would be interested in a pre-injection sidecar class or even club?

Simple enough rules inline with the normal open class rules which allow up to 1300cc I believe?.

But in addition they,

must run on carbs.

must be of tubular construction.

The rules could have a minimum age of chassis in there or that the engine must have been homologated with carbs, but to be fair who would want to build a brand new bike and stick the latest engine in and fit carbs??? Ok someone might but I doubt it.

So, it might attract a good spread of bikes from 350/750 stinkwheels, PC, older F2 and older tubular long uns? All suited to different tracks and conditions so over a season I think there could be some surprises.

I have spoken to one club who would be interested in running this. I'm sure more might as a way to attract entries.

What do people think?

jc

Don't the Derby Phoenix run a similar class or am I mixing it up with something else John

Me!

I don't think it would be necessary to try and identify age of chassis, because, as you say, no-one is going to build a new outfit and then stick a carb engine in it.

I think the simple identification of tubular contruction and carbs should be sufficient criteria.

I have done very little racing this year due to overspending last year, but if a pre-injection championship was organised, I would make it my priority. Would the club you are thinking of, run at a variety of venues? If the club uses quality (expensive) venues, might it be possible to include a round or two with another club such as Aintree or Tonfanau, which would aid variety and may keep costs down?

Tappo - get your big bike out!!

Marianne

Would you be able to use tuned engines / rebored / re- headed etc etc ?

Craig, I think they have talked about it in the past but not sure if they got it off the ground. However I think that's was just PI F2, not open.

Marianne, I think it would be a great idea to include a couple of the smaller tracks. As you say it would add variety, keep costs down if they are more local and it would also allow the smaller engines to maybe level the playing field a bit on the tighter tracks compared to the big stuff.

Gofasta, I don't see why tuned engines shouldn't be allowed. The idea is to keep the rules simple and easy to police.

Some might argue that a long tubular with a tuned 1300 engine will win all the time or beat a 350. But we all know that won't always be the case as its down to so many factors, like driver/passenger, circuit, weather, etc etc.

Tappo - get your bike out

jc

Sounds good to me John

Don't think it would be easy to police engines being used. We all know that some F2 engines can easily be modified too much larger capacities and who would find this out? A scrutineer ?
Also as most of us realise to win races you need to spend money.So would it not just end up being the team with the biggest sponsor/pockets wins every time?
Finally a big engined F1 on a big track will always beat F2s.Not so on a short circuit true but there would have to be some major thinking involved to make it fair / interesting for all concerned. I think the only way to make a class like you are talking about work is to control engines being used and as all carb'd engines are now considered old by most racers how could you do this ?

gofasta wrote:Don't think it would be easy to police engines being used. We all know that some F2 engines can easily be modified too much larger capacities and who would find this out? A scrutineer ?
Also as most of us realise to win races you need to spend money.So would it not just end up being the team with the biggest sponsor/pockets wins every time?
Finally a big engined F1 on a big track will always beat F2s.Not so on a short circuit true but there would have to be some major thinking involved to make it fair / interesting for all concerned. I think the only way to make a class like you are talking about work is to control engines being used and as all carb'd engines are now considered old by most racers how could you do this ?

I agree that to some racers carbed engines are a thing of the past, but definitely not to all. Not everyone can afford the latest engines/electronics etc, and not everyone wants to compete in the British and TT where you need thee things to be at the front. I know of 4 perfectly usable/good carbed F2's for sale at the moment that would be fun to ride and would be competitive against each other. I know of at least two that are beating injected bikes on a regular basis in the right hands and are more than capable of doing well in the highest classes.

My point is that the rules wouldn't need policing other than a quick look to see if it has carbs and is tubular. If someone decides they need to win at any cost then let them get on with it. My idea is partly to bring more bikes out on track, but more importantly to bring similar bikes together.

I can't agree that an F1 will always beat an F2. I've beaten lots of F1's and I'm fat and old I would guess that if you take some of the faster 350/pc teams, some of the middle order classic, F2 and some slower tubular F1 teams their times at a lot of tracks will be within 10% of each other.

This isn't going to appeal to everyone but if we can get a dozen or more teams to turn up on a regular bases then I think it could be fun.

Just a quick update. I spoke again to Derby Phoenix last night and they are going to discuss it in more detail at their next meeting. If they agree to running it, they might be able to get it in for this year but it will probably be next year.

To all those who have said they would be interested, would you please drop me a quick message with the best way of contacting you.

Thanks

John.

Wish you all the best with it John. Like you say you know if 4 outfits that are for sale & 2 or more that are beating injected engines, so 7 potential F2s ? How likely would it be for all 7 outfits to be able to race at the same date ??
Good luck John but sadly I think it needs a lot more outfits to be available and a lot more thought into the finer details of a race meeting like this.

little chud wrote:As the title says really.

Who would be interested in a pre-injection sidecar class or even club?

Simple enough rules inline with the normal open class rules which allow up to 1300cc I believe?.

But in addition they,

must run on carbs.

must be of tubular construction.

The rules could have a minimum age of chassis in there or that the engine must have been homologated with carbs, but to be fair who would want to build a brand new bike and stick the latest engine in and fit carbs??? Ok someone might but I doubt it.

So, it might attract a good spread of bikes from 350/750 stinkwheels, PC, older F2 and older tubular long uns? All suited to different tracks and conditions so over a season I think there could be some surprises.

I have spoken to one club who would be interested in running this. I'm sure more might as a way to attract entries.

What do people think?

jc

John,

I suggested this back in 2010, "run what you brung", tubular, carbed engines.
Let those bloody fools who wish to create a totally unreliable GS1450 waste their money, don't bother policing it.
A bodged oversize GS engine will never live with a good 998 anyway (I know from bitter experience)
One additional rule to keep things sensible, have a maximum value for the bikes, if a fellow competitor wants to buy your outfit, the price must not exceed say £10,000.
That rule will guarantee to fend off the so-called winners with the fat bankroll, who would be daft enough to build a £15K rocketship knowing he would have to sell for £10K?
Bring it on, more fun, less rules, less room for complaining and argument.
p.s. Free entries would be nice, after all we all know how fantastic cheap racing is

gofasta wrote:Wish you all the best with it John. Like you say you know if 4 outfits that are for sale & 2 or more that are beating injected engines, so 7 potential F2s ? How likely would it be for all 7 outfits to be able to race at the same date ??
Good luck John but sadly I think it needs a lot more outfits to be available and a lot more thought into the finer details of a race meeting like this.

I mentioned those just as an example of what is for sale at the moment, not of the potential outfits that could join in. So far 16 teams have said they would be interested. I have no doubt we will get more and I also have no doubt that not all of them will come to all meetings.

Thanks for the good luck wishes Gofasta. It might take a more thought and it might never get off the ground but its worth exploring. As I said, it won't be for everyone.

Hi Merv,

Great minds think alike

I'm not sure about the buy it for 10k rule. In some respects I agree, it would stop people building a 15k bike, but if I had for example a 10k bike and someone insisted on buying it, I think I'd not be happy if I didn't want to sell it at that time. Does that make sense? If I had a 5k bike and someone insisted on paying me 10k for it, I'd deliver it for them.

I could be totally wrong but as has been said before who is going to spend 20k just to win a 2nd league championship which is what we are talking about. Its jumpers for goal posts not Wembley.

Merv, you are right but there is no such thing as free entries I'm afraid. There might be entries paid for by someone else, or part paid for as in bemsee but I for one am struggling to pay my own entries, let alone others. If anyone knows of anyone who would help towards the costs then it would be good to have a chat about it.

I, from my rain light business would be happy to fund a trophy if it were to help. I wouldn't want it to be in my name though. I'm not worthy of that although I do have someone in mind. TBA. .

Could we bring the vintage big wheelers along? Tubular frames, carbs, etc. Not as quick as the kneelers but a lot of fun sideways - and probably to too far behind some of the more modern outfits on shorter/ twistier tracks.

Mark

Mark, do they fit in the open class? if so then yes as far as I am concerned.

And that is exactly what I hope will happen. You turn up on your big wheeler, race against whatever else is there, maybe finish first or maybe last but have some fun.

jc