2011 TT

[Helen Gibson]

..........and danced the night away! Happy days!

[custardchucker]

Why not give people the choice of engines but have a seperate award / prize money for the winning crew / top 3 crews who are using standard motors, policed by wopping the winning / top 3 bike on the dyno after the race. The rider can advise the scrutineers what engine they are running before they go out to race in case they are switching between tuned and standard during the week.

This probably won't alter the top 10 but it will give recognition to those who can't afford tuned engines.

P.s. Get cheaper boat travel for all competitors rather than IOM Govt throwing all the money in the direction of the top team/s, who then spend the money on top equipment and therefore we get into this position!!

[petercaughlin]

So the equation is thus, The greater the cost= the smaller the entry,unfortunately some of the participants are partly to blame we seem to have a culture now of "he who throws the biggest bucket of money at his machine wins" rather than the time honoured way of winning by skill and ability,presumably these are the people who do not want standard engines,ecu`s or a control tyre .
As someone who has been going to the TT since 74 and only missed 2 years it is sad to see the sidecar entry depleted so the most important thing at present is to get the entries back to where they were.
So why cant it be made cheaper,with the present economic climate liable to last quite a time I think it has to be, last year one of the best discussed topics was the long running debate on Formula 3,why cant something like this be incorporated into the current structure? I am sure this would bring in a lot of people,it also might bring back a lot of ingenuity which the sidecars used to be famous for.
I hope I havent offended anyone with the above remarks but I think the continued success of our sport and especially the TT is more important than ego`s.

Should I take cover from the expected amount of used 600cc engines now being hurled in the general direction of Dorset???

[Bob B]

Peter opines that "he who throws the biggest bucket of money at his machine wins"

I agree except that it is a recent thing, first coming to light in the late 70s and early 80s when the first big TZ outfits started filtering into club racing. I along with some others voiced our concerns at a TOMCC to the late Stan Mellish. He did not take kindly to my suggestion that all the sidecar crews arrive in the collecting area at Lydden and when the flag dropped all run to the start line clutching their latest bank statements - the one with the biggest overdraft is declared the winner

For a number of years a harboured a forlorn hope that the demise of the smokers may have bought a little financial sanity to racing especially with the advent of the 'cheaper' F2 class, forlorn as I say ...

[G JONES]

agree except that it is a recent thing, first coming to light in the late 70s and early 80s when the first big TZ outfits started filtering into club racing.

I don't think it's anything new - I would guess that it's always been that way to some extent - what has changed is the complexity of the engines - and the availability of so many (expensive) parts to make them go faster...and the need to have all the electronics & computer support to allow them run correctly in an outfit...

[mick]

standard engine and any ecu you like

[kew]

agree except that it is a recent thing, first coming to light in the late 70s and early 80s when the first big TZ outfits started filtering into club racing.

I don't think it's anything new - I would guess that it's always been that way to some extent - what has changed is the complexity of the engines - and the availability of so many (expensive) parts to make them go faster...and the need to have all the electronics & computer support to allow them run correctly in an outfit...

Tuned does not mean unreliable, I have a tuned engine comprising:
A balanced crank, rods and pistons.
Skimmed head and barrel to improve the squish and slightly raise the compression.
Minor shape changes to the ports.
Combustion chambers all made to the same volumes.
Kit clutch springs.
A properly sorted sump and oil pickup. (done with the help of a data logger to check the oil pressure)
I now run a DTA engine management system which cost me £875 new, I can run it on my Honda and my Suzuki so is cheaper than two separate systems and it has data logging so I can sort out my Suzuki sump.
Don't forget if you have a numbskull building your engine it will fail, tuned or standard.

Now then Gordon where is the megga expense in that? and as for the complexity I assume you mean that it has valves.

If I am not allowed to balance my engine and make it breath more efficiently then I for one will have done my last TT.

[steve-e]

So apart from raising the compression and shaping the ports a bit, sorting out the clutch the rest is pretty much blueprint?
Wouldn't it be fairer if you could do all that and other people weren't doing more? I'm sure they are doing it. Mixing bits and making them more unreliable, getting rid of the rev limiter or just shifting it a bit

If you could make them reliable and just like the standard engine would that be enough Keith? All on the same stuff apart from the bits you have that makes yours faster (not aimed at you personally!)

[kew]

I don't want to spend lots of money on my engines but I do want them to last. I had an engine go pop this year at the TT but the problem was component failure (a rod snapped) this is nothing to do with what I have done to the engine. The engine had been run previously for three seasons with no trouble.
My engine work is primarily for reliability but by balancing everything I also get more power out of it. I am afraid that a standard engine rule will be brought in and no work will be allowed on the engines. I can't afford that.
If standard engines means that I can blueprint and balance it then I have no problem with that. If not I'll go to BINGO with the wife.
I know that there are illegal engines out there now with bits taken from other models such as heads off 750 Suzukis, injectors off earlier Hondas and God knows what else but those people are only cheating themselves.

[palace15]

If it was not for the fact that I marshal I would probably sleep during the solo races, I only go for the sidecars, It will always be a controversial debate, standard v tuned engines, and one that will never reach a conclusion to suit everybody, I personally would like to see sidecars at the Manx then I would be over. Would more crews do the TT if the costs were lower? Is the chance at best, to get a finishers medal and not much chance of a replica when some outfits are lapping around 116 still give crews the incentive to race?
Many fans appreciate the sidecars, and we know the organisers would like to see the end of them, I would like to see a 3rd race and get rid of the zero TT, that, I believe should be kept to experimental tracks and not the TT. If the organisers can offer 10k to the first 100mph electric lap, then they can certainly help out the sidecars more.
Just my 2 cents worth!

[kew]

Hey Dave I think I'm in love with you.
come to see us in the paddock next year and we'll do some beer testing.

[oldbelly]

The problem is people have been sucked into spending silly money on engine work. You can only do so much to an engine and the amount charged by some is unbelievable. Parts are very expensive now and I mean standard replacement parts let alone race stuff. However anyone who spends 1000s on labour gets what they get. Ive heard of people spending £7000 to do an engine. Greg Lambert was pretty quick on engines they have done themselves at this years TT. From what Ive heard from this years TT, oil temparatures are going through the roof. The problem is ,600s are reving far too highly now to last a sidecar TT in the hands of the front runners.Standard engines wont help that much cos they rev just as much as tuned engines. In a sidecar you dont need silly revs to get good power. Also as Kieth says certain people will blow anything up .

[G JONES]

Tuned does not mean unreliable, I have a tuned engine comprising:
A balanced crank, rods and pistons.etc

Hi Keith - I guess this depends on your definition of tuned - and maybe everyone else's...
Most of what you have done would come under "blueprinting" as far as I understand it - and I have no argument against that at all - and it ought to make them reliable as well as fast - if not - maybe the wrong type of engines are being used ?
Surely blueprint & balancing is mainly a case of putting them together as they should be - and shouldn't involve a lot of cost - other than time ?
From reading a lot of posts here - and listening to people - "blueprinting" just isn't enough - there are other things you need to do to make them usable (and competitive) in an outfit ?

Now then Gordon where is the megga expense in that?

I guess the term "expensive" means different things to different people ? - for example - some folks think nothing of spending as much as £10 on a night out - whereas I would consider that far too expensive...
I would also guess there are gonna be a lot more people having to change their ideas on what is "expensive" over the next few months / years.

and as for the complexity I assume you mean that it has valves.

You know the answer to that already keith - "Valves are for wheels"

[palace15]

Hey Dave I think I'm in love with you.
come to see us in the paddock next year and we'll do some beer testing.

Hi Keith, Yes I will call and visit you in the paddock next year, but from what I have seen, the best tuning you could do is to lose a few stone, this is a bit rich from me, being I am the wrong side of 18 stone!!

[Eddy Wright]

Keith it seems to me your engines are just about standard in anycase. Can't see your problem.