The Place

realroadracer wrote:

petercaughlin wrote:

bruce moore wrote:probably,but its also the genaral concept of the original class which has been ruined

Does that mean then that come Hell or High water F2 will always be 600`s even if as we can see, that people are not happy with it,well then sound the death knell,or try and change stuff.

No class stays the same forever. One thing that will dictate the class will be availability of engines. If people are not buying motorbikes, they're not crashing them and hence there are fewer bikes to be broken. I think we have 600's now because that was the most readily available engine at the time. I personally think 750's would have been a good size for a single, joint class but the manufacturers no longer make them in any quantity so there wouldn't have been enough engines.
Personally speaking, I don't think the basis of the class is wrong (.i.e. steel tubular chassis, road bike engines and no exotic materials). Where it has gone wrong is with the expensive tuning aids that have put the cost beyond the average working guy.
Incomes are, at best, static. Costs are still increasing. When costs exceed income people stop racing. People are stopping racing, it's happening guys and we seem to be sleepwalking into oblivion.
I'm glad I've had my day but I fear for the future.

Geoff,

On another topic on this site I have suggested a class for conventional 600's with stock ignition and stock carburettors, perfect for newcomers and a good class fror the TT. Perhaps a control tyre but I am not a fan of that particular idea. If this class was a goer I would start putting one together now.

Regards,

Merv

mervnoble wrote:On another topic on this site I have suggested a class for conventional 600's with stock ignition and stock carburettors, perfect for newcomers and a good class fror the TT. Perhaps a control tyre but I am not a fan of that particular idea. If this class was a goer I would start putting one together now.
Regards,
Merv

Merv - we've been there before - when the 600s were voted in by the original F2 club - there were a few restrictions put in place - at the time the intention was to keep the 350s / 600s as level as possible - and to keep costs down - at what point those restrictions were thrown out of the window - I don't know - I packed up not too long after the 600s were allowed in.

If it was possible to have all standard 600s - even I might have gone down the 600 road - but it was always going to go the way it has - more complexity and cost - and very difficult if not impossible to ensure that everyone is running standard engines.

The other thing is - as has been discussed before - the 600s it seems are not reliable unless you do the modifications like dry sump etc (and datalogging ?)

One of the reasons I always preferred the 350s - was that it was not really possible for anyone to have a better engine just by throwing money at it - not true for the 600s - and if I'm going to race - I want to know I have as good a chance of winning as the next man - and if I'm on equal machinery - I can cope with coming last if it's me that's at fault.

Once again Gordon you are correct in what you say if the 600 part of F2 had been run in the spirit in which it was allegedly intended then things would have been in much better shape all round

Once or twice a year the same old posts appear and no one seems to take notice does anyone have any Ideas how to change it then ?

I for one will take no further notice its all been said before

The absolutley fabulous sport of sidecar racing was over for us a while ago it was the best time of our lives great friends, venues and thanks to the hundreds of people who made it all possible I would not have missed it for the world it should be made easier for others to have that fun too but at an affordable cost and with an equal chance !

2 really good posts

anp says " does anyone have any ideas on how to change them"presumably he means the rules,is it so hard then to change them that a significant number of people are racing stuff they obviously dont want to

I only went 600 to race at the TT,as the class is now, I personally couldn't contemplate ever affording an F2 again,if the class formula changed then like many others would try my hardest to support and compete again

Wow !! didn’t realise the silly season had crept up so quickly ! Steve, can’t you just change the date on all the posts from this time last year re standard engines !!! and Dave come to that !
Everybody’s entitled to their own opinion and mine is, I wish people would remove their blinkers and look at the bigger picture, you will never stop people with money spending it on their hobby – Fact !

I for one can see no merit in standard engines in the long term. Every year manufacturers are producing engines that are better than the previous model, so in year one, a pair of standard engines will cost less than tuned ones it’s true, but in year 3, 4, etc, when the people who can, have had a pair of the latest engines every year, the costs will escalate. Not to mention the ECU upgrades (if standard ECUs are obligatory) or the cost of chassis alterations when you find they have different mountings.
Come on guys, it’s not the cost of engines that’s killing the sport, it’s all the ‘incidentals’ added together: tyres best part of £200, Diesel £2 per Ltr, entries £180 - £300 Hmmm ! we must be in one of the only forms of entertainment where the ‘acts’ have to pay to be on stage !!! etc etc !
Leave it alone and go racing !

Wal wrote:Wow !! didn’t realise the silly season had crept up so quickly ! Steve, can’t you just change the date on all the posts from this time last year re standard engines !!! and Dave come to that !

Each time it starts we run a book in moderators It would be cheating to interfere

i think the problem is......an average cost of an F2 now costs more than what most people earn,when you think 10yrs ago a £5000 outfit would?could lap and average over 100mph and be reliable for most of the time your there,the price has got out of control. £10000-£30000 on an F2 ! thousends on engines,thousends on ecu's and electronics, data logging,race fuels etc,for what ! perhaps a couple of MPH quicker on lap times to what most riders were doing 10yrs ago,madness.when you think our TT budget was 2weeks holiday money im amazed we could do it and for best part of 10yrs as a rider.
escalate the cost,smaller the grid"simples" !

I think the bigger picture will be that soon there wont be one to look at or take part in no matter what your budget is

Well said wally bang on.....

nick

Hi,I can´t realy understand your talk I do this year my first TT and I come from Germany.
1000€ Ferry
400€ Patrol
35o€ benzin
1ooo€ Tyres slick-inter
6-8k€ 6 Mettings for get the Mountain Licens
10-12k€ for one year with 24 days Hollyday
To say without a realy good Sponsor and you spoke from Tunning or everything else
I drive a LCR k5 there is payed.I must work for it, just for Hobby !!!

TAZ

And that Taz is just total dedication

Taz, you must either -
a) work a lot more than I am able to with the lack of work around
b) get paid well for it per hour
c) not be buying a house in England (*1)
d) Have a rich wife

Good on ya Taz! Always good to see you


(*1) There's nearly a thousand a month for me gone on the mortgage let alone stupid for bills (no I'm not buying Bill's house as well) taking me up to around £1400 before living .. I've even stopped going to pubs

I was when the on the fsra commitee when the 600 came in, I was for the idea as the Yamaha spares cartel of Fowler and Pagetts had just upped prices by 30%. However i suggested;

1) standard engines ( told don't worry 600 won't ever make 100bhp)

2) 7.2 rear tyres, which most of us were using at the time, except for the top few who had access to 8.4 F1 front tyres.
I suggested a deal with a manufacture to have control tyres, but was told this was unfair to teams sponsored by tyre suppliers.

3) Standard ignition with only power commander allowed, again I was told that this was unfair to the top few who already had fancy ignition.

I finshed 8th on a standard zzr600 in 93 and then in the following years the money started to come in with ignition and tuning.