The Place

So this means we don't get to play on the mountain on the saturday? Because I don't think they use the Woodlands circuit anymore?

mcmaiering wrote:So this means we don't get to play on the mountain on the saturday? Because I don't think they use the Woodlands circuit anymore?

Yes - that's right Marc - Pat's post just confirmed what was already on the A66 site that someone else pointed out last week.
I can't help wondering just how many people would actually "request" that we don't run on the full circuit both days - more a case of someone saving money on the circuit hire - but then we don't actually know if that's the case...
The regs from the start of the year state "full circuit" - & the entry fee reflects that - and with no prospect of a reduced entry fee for the Saturday - can't help but feel more than a bit disappointed...

G JONES wrote:

mcmaiering wrote:So this means we don't get to play on the mountain on the saturday? Because I don't think they use the Woodlands circuit anymore?

Yes - that's right Marc - Pat's post just confirmed what was already on the A66 site that someone else pointed out last week.
I can't help wondering just how many people would actually "request" that we don't run on the full circuit both days - more a case of someone saving money on the circuit hire - but then we don't actually know if that's the case...
The regs from the start of the year state "full circuit" - & the entry fee reflects that - and with no prospect of a reduced entry fee for the Saturday - can't help but feel more than a bit disappointed...

I think an important point for you guys Gordon is that none of your 350/PC teams requested it. If anyone did request it (massive IF) then they are saying its so they can get signatures for the TT. Clearly this wasn't you guys.

Perhaps it would have been courteous to ask you guys before hand?

jc.

little chud wrote:I think an important point for you guys Gordon is that none of your 350/PC teams requested it. If anyone did request it (massive IF) then they are saying its so they can get signatures for the TT. Clearly this wasn't you guys.

Quite right - and although I can understand that people want to get those signatures - I really don't see why that should affect our class / series in any way - the 350/PC series / meetings were agreed - and signed up to by the teams before the start of this season.
I know it may seem like a trivial thing - but we should be able to rely on the series being run as it was set out from the start - except for any "exceptional" circumstances - stuff like weather etc...
I'm also still curious about the cost of the hire for the shorter circuit - bearing in mind the entry fee is not to be reduced for the weekend.
I know we also don't bring many bikes to the grid - usually anywhere between 8 - 12 - but then the club have usually only had 4 or 5 bikes on the grid at most meetings.

Perhaps it would have been courteous to ask you guys before hand?
jc.

Beware low flying pigs...

Anybody fancy the odds on it being the short circuit both day's !

Eddy Wright wrote:Anybody fancy the odds on it being the short circuit both day's !

Hi Eddy - you know something we don't ? - it wouldn't really be for the reason stated then though - would it ?

Change of format - With entries flowing in for the end of season race Bonanza theres been an ever increasing demand from competitors wanting signatures on their licences for two separate circuits

Eddy Wright wrote:Anybody fancy the odds on it being the short circuit both day's !

Nope

I've just spoken with a friend who does a regular 2-day-plus-evening booking with Cadwell every year and has been doing so for well over 15 years. He advises that Cadwell no longer advertise the short circuit any more, it's not on their price list, so he can't comment on a different in costs. He did say though, that:

Speaking to {them} the problem is that they've installed substantial barriers for the short circuit hairpin and it takes over an hour to remove/install them..... hence the reluctance to bring it into use.

However, back in the days when the barrier was virtual or at most a bale or two, there was most certainly a substantial difference between the full and short circuit. I think this was mainly based on having fewer marshals and paramedics. Going back into the distant past {I recall} only having one ambulance for the short and two for the full circuits.

So it strikes me that the suggestions made earlier in this thread about reducing costs and manpower may well have credence. Seriously - racers ASKING for two different circuit signatures on what is pretty much the last weekend of the year - really? Smells of fish to me.

Anne

It doesn't matter that it's end of season Anne, if you're getting two sigs for the price of one ferry crossing from IOM it is going to be a bonus If there were a couple of them a year I could see a few teams just doing them to get the 6 other than Jurby meets.

But can't the TT signatures be from any circuit anyway? Or is it three circuit minimum like the upgrades? Because you'd still get a signature for each day even if they ran the full circuit all weekend...

Not if they're on the same permit you wouldn't would you? I thought they had to be on a separate permit to get more than one sig for MCL? I could be wrong, I know someone who will know for sure

I could be wrong too, but I've always got two signatures for two day events even when they were on the same circuit and under the same regs... I'm still waiting for my last National signature though so you're right in that the rules could be different...

Last time I hired the Club Circuit it was 25% cheaper than the Full Circuit.

It also requires less marshals, but I'm not sure where the idea that you'd need less Medical Cover comes from..... As it happens, the ACU Handbook only requires 2 Doctors and 2 Ambulances at any circuit, but you'd be absolutely bonkers to run on that kind of staffing levels. For instance, last weekend at Cadwell Park I had 5 Doctors, 5 Paramedics, 5 Ambulances, 2 Doctors Cars, 1 Rescue Unit, 1 Nurse and 7 Medical Technicians, which is about the same as I take to most venues.

I think the truth is that Auto 66 are struggling this year, which is a real shame. They have been very loyal to their members though and have not made up excuses to cancel events, instead choosing to run at a fairly substantial loss in order to provide their members with continued opportunities to race. I know they did cancel at Oulton Park, but they were completely honest about their reasons for doing so (lack of entries). They ran at Mallory Park a couple of weeks ago with just 43 solo entries and a few sidecars, which must have cost them a fortune in losses. They are trying very hard to keep going and I think that is very laudable.

They need support, not a kick in the nadgers. You might find that the shorter circuit length results in more laps to make up the mileage, so I'm sure you'll have a great time anyway. The Club Circuit gets used so rarely that you might even be in with a chance of setting a lap record that will last for a very long time!

As far as Mountain Course Licence Signatures goes, you only get one signature per permit number. If a different circuit is used even on consecutive days, you have to run on two separate permits and then you would be entitled to two signatures. Club Circuit is licenced as ACU068 and Full Circuit is ACU012 so they are treated as separate venues. The two permit numbers should be listed in the Supplementary Regulations and on the two separate entry forms.

Hope that helps.

OK - a few more thoughts....
The change to using the short circuit on the Saturday has only been recently announced - and bearing in mind that the regs were available at the start of the year - it comes as more that a bit of a surprise.
The stated reason is that it is because of "demand" - if that's the case - can we hear from anyone that has asked for this change ?
I think - as DS said - it could be seen to be a cost saving measure - if that's the case - at least tell us the real reason - not try to sell it as something it is not.
AS DS pointed out - the A66 meetings have been poorly supported for some time - & they may have been completely honest about their reasons for canceling at Oulton Park - but I have to wonder about this meeting.
It's no surprise that there is a lack of support - the entry fees are usually much higher than other clubs - even for the same circuit - Mallory cost £180 for a one day meeting in May - EMRA entry at Mallory is usually about £145 - I think the festival at Mallory is even cheaper...
So - I hear you say - go to Mallory that weekend instead ? - well I certainly would - but for the fact that the PC / F350 championship final round is at Cadwell - a meeting agreed at the start of the year - and at the start of the year scheduled to be on the full circuit....(£270 for the 2 days) - with no reduction for the "short circuit Saturday"

Club Circuit is licenced as ACU068 and Full Circuit is ACU012 so they are treated as separate venues. The two permit numbers should be listed in the Supplementary Regulations and on the two separate entry forms.

The regs state the following:
Course Licence No: Cadwell Park No. 012
PERMIT NO: ACU 34044
So - if I understand it correctly - there would need to be a new set of regs / permit Nos obtained by the club to run as 2 separate meetings ? - not seen anything as yet.

I agree - it is useful for people looking to get sigs for MCL - if it was a purely club meeting it would be ok - but it just unfortunately happens to be the final round of a couple of championships - which was arranged at the start of the year...
Smells of fish to me too...

Gordon,has anybody asked if you will be racing on the CLUB circuit OR the WOODLANDS?In the recent past when the VMCC have done this they have always used the Woodlands circuit,I cant recall racing on the short circuit,since they put the stupid chicane in.Obviously it would be usefull to you to know this before you get there,as the gearing for each circuit is different.

John Cs comments are correct,thats the procedure that should have been followed,but wasnt.