The Place

idris wrote:Now don't deny it Kew as you know the guest of honour that night Mick Boddice will testify

Now then Ian, Mick must have been to blame 'cos he ended up on the bottom of the pile of bodies, although, come to think of it it was you and Bob.

Belly wrote:I didnt agree with standard engines at one time but i was probably slightly biased as i didnt spend any money tuning engines but it hasnt done any harm to F1 racing. There will definately be a supply issue given we are relying on bike sales and crashes but with numbers probably at an all time low racing may be now is the time to change!

I have just built a big engine bike and I'm happy with that being a standard engine but the differences between 2 standard engines from the factory can be very big and this is magnified on a smaller engine.

Anyway back to the thread,
I will be pleased to see Dave back at the TT, he is by far the best rider around there.

Be great to see Dave back as for KEW solo racing you stay away from my garage

Belly wrote:Keith/Geoff,

This is off topic but Sidecar racing is dying rather rapidly. Cadwell Park is a good example at the weekend. The meeting was great but look at the grids 16 x F2 and 20 x F1. A few years ago there would have been none qualifiers in both classes!! If something isnt done to reduce costs quickly then we wont have any racing!!

In F2 racing its the cost of Engines (14k is the figures mentioned for one engine) and Engine management!
In F1 racing its Tyres!

I didnt agree with standard engines at one time but i was probably slightly biased as i didnt spend any money tuning engines but it hasnt done any harm to F1 racing. There will definately be a supply issue given we are relying on bike sales and crashes but with numbers probably at an all time low racing may be now is the time to change!

Phil

Phil, I agree almost completely with what you say. I just don't see how forcing people to buy new engines/heads will keep them racing. Why not have a cut-off date for engines so that the tuned ones can be sold 'downwards' ?.
How much is a Motec or similar system? It strikes me as odd to disallow a bit of work on the head with a file but still allow massively expensive 'black boxes'. That won't get costs down.
If the aim is to reduce costs and improve reliability and close racing should we not be looking at reducing revs and some sort of control tyre ?


I still think Moly will be the man to beat.

i know its off topic standard heads will do naff all !!!!! its the bloody electronic gizmos which are killing the class ,shoot me down in flames,standard engines with standard ignitions,Simples ,separate the tuned engines/motec from the standard to allow this to work,so more people can race(2 classes).
anyway,glad to see Dave coming back,its hard to stop,believe me.

So far everyone posting has agreed it's good to see Dave having another go. We probably should split the thread but we can't while the posts have both topics in one post so it will have to stay as is.
The problem as I see it as an outsider from the f2 class is still that the TT sidecars are not the same as what the F2 class should be. The bikes are right for the TT but not for what the class is labelled as. Just call them TT Sidecars, and have a seperate F2 class, try to get the two similar enough that both are fairly interchangeable (is that a word?!). Have proper fast tubular sidecars at the TT and a cheaper class for the F2's in the UK - and now spreading throughout Europe and will eventually be worldwide rules. Then your TT sidecar engine won't get too worn out the rest of the year testing and the F2 one will work for the rest of the season while you get the 6 signatures needed and the rest of the F2 world can join in on a similar level?
Just playing Devil's Ad

The idea of world wide rules is an excellent one. Everyone keeps telling us the world is getting smaller so it certainly makes sence to have world wide sidecar rules.

Hear Hear Bruce its a great shame the rule makers cant hear you as well !

Everyone on standard heads and cams at the TT would really play into Molys hands. The money being spent on at least a couple of F2s is making the TT very one sided. The helicopter footage of Klaffi driving up behind John Holden up the hill showed that.

Glad to see Dave is comming back

Why not just have a 600 class standard engine long or short chassis
Keeps the cost of tuning down and also keeps the tyre cost down if you want to race at the TT you have a short bike every thing else its your choice,makes sense to me but what do I know?

i was talking to john about this and i do agree that it maybe a good idea but are these bikes out there and people to race them?? i.e. long bikes with 600 engines



SORRY OFF TOPIC

Like I said earlier in the thread Dean, it went off topic but a few of the posts had both topics in which makes it much more complicated splitting - ok, impossible.
I did look again earlier today and still couldn't really work out how to split it satisfactor satisfa... properly

Doesn't need split... it's just a conversation like you'd have in the pub... a bit of this and a bit of that... some very good comments too.

Ta H

Dean,

I spoke with John H about this at Cadwell aswell. The 600s get enough stick in a short bike and blow up regularly. Putting 600s in long bikes would be like hitting a self distruct button!! The long bikes also need power to get through the corners hence why they developed away from a convention chassis because the power got too much... My old man tried the 600 in a long bike and it was only any good on the roads!

Also when Webbo was pushing the idea he talked of 130bhp + but with the new rules next year im assuming the power would be closer to 100bhp which would make the long bikes even less competitive!

Phil

Belly wrote:Dean,

I spoke with John H about this at Cadwell aswell. The 600s get enough stick in a short bike and blow up regularly. Putting 600s in long bikes would be like hitting a self distruct button!! The long bikes also need power to get through the corners hence why they developed away from a convention chassis because the power got too much... My old man tried the 600 in a long bike and it was only any good on the roads!

Also when Webbo was pushing the idea he talked of 130bhp + but with the new rules next year im assuming the power would be closer to 100bhp which would make the long bikes even less competitive!

Phil

So big bikes dont blow up regularly .....

New engines are making more and more power straight out of the box phil my totally standard except low top gear K8 i used at the tt MADE 118 HP on the dyno . So even with the new rules with perhaps a skim of the block and some can timing youll push it past 120 easily .And with some good dyno work itll be right .

My point wasnt really to sway either way but to ask really

IF IT WAS ALLOWED WOULD YOU PUT A 600 IN YOUR LONG CHASSIS

I realise that some people stick to big bikes because of there build/size...me included but a big number of F2 teams keep them primarily for the TT me included-Tyre costs etc which was all i heard a lot of F1 teams moan about whilst at cadwell at the weekend was how bad the tyre bill is becoming some teams getting through 3 sets per meeting . Which dont get me wrong is one of the reasons i would never entertain changing class .