Cyril Smith/Edgar Peacock Sidecar

[steve-e]

[Katzen]

Hi sidecarpeter,

Apologies for delayed response to your posting. Am working on the outfit in a small town about 250 mi. from home and the town is in the process
of moving its library, so no internet connection there until 05JA15. At the moment I'm in another location for C'mas, and their library is open, so
am able to send this on (hey, believe it or not, not all "Yanks have I phones...).

"Thanks much" for the background info/story, and photos. As I (think) I said early on, I know absolutely nothing about the outfit's history after
Cyril sold it in '59 until the time I bought it (can't recall when), so this is all "golden"! Thought that might be Cyril's "Missus" in the first photo...
Was unaware Bill Hocking also raced a solo. Is he still around?

Your last photo would appear to answer my "handhold" question (and "No, it's not too late"). Although we didn't see any evidence of a handhold on
the broken subframe, we didn't strip any paint off that area as I didn't think it would be that high, but your photo seems to indicate there was one
on the top tube just under the seat. Will take a closer look when get back into it next year, but even if we don't find anything, the photo will be good enough to fab one.

Although the photo doesn't show much swing arm/pivot detail, the swing arm and broken SA subframe supplied with the outfit was in good enough condition to determine pivot locations, although we still haven't discovered reason for chain misalignment. However, by "skimming" the backside of
the gearbox drive sprocket we should be able to get enough chain to (LH) frame clearance, and by spacing the wheel sprocket out to left about 1/2"
it appears we can get a straight chain run. The "mystery" (to me, anyway), is why the "problem" even exists as using the parts supplied and going
by old welds, etc., nothing in this area appears to have been moved laterally.

Hey, I see you're a driver: Are you racing now (well not this month...), or did you do it "back in the day?"
Whichever, "Welcome" to the forum! It's a great place - as you've no doubt already discovered.

And Steve, "Thanks for posting pics!"

Hope you all had a Merry Christmas, and that you have a HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Don

[sidecarpeter]

Thanks for the encouraging remarks and I am very pleased that the pictures have proved useful.
Sadly, Bill Hocking died a good few years ago so that would appear to end that line of enquiry. The two photos with Bill shown were the only ones he had.
Yes, I have been a driver, mainly on Hillclimbs, Sprints and Regularity Races throughout Europe but it is all at a stop whilst being a full time carer for my 95 year old mum. I miss it like crazy but family is important and one day I shall be free !!!
Some years ago I acquired a Manx Featherbed frame plus a few bits that had clearly been raced as a sidecar outfit. After spending over a year travelling all over England meeting many people including Stan Dibben, Pip Harris, Ken Sprayson, Mick Boddice and Charlie Edwards, I finally identified it as Cyril Smiths 1952 frame . How, you may ask. Well a visit to Kathy Dibben.s house ( Cyril's daughter ) resulted in Cyril's 1951 and 1952 diaries being dug out of the loft for the first time in years. They revealed many facts including gearing for the various circuits, engine nos and chassis nos - eureka !! What made this discovery extra nice was that Pip Harris had identified it several months before in a matter of a few minutes of casting his eyes on it.He said " it's Cyril's 1952 chassis because these hammer marks were done by me at Spa to get the works engine bellmouth to clear the frame".I heard what he said but felt it was rather weak evidence so looked for more proof of ownership. As it turned out, having identification from two independent sources is nice to have I am sure you will agree. In due course, the outfit will be reconstructed to 1952 spec but a combination of no pay as a carer for the last four years and the price of manx parts is slowing the work somewhat !
The biggest laugh is that the so called 'Cyril Smith 1952 World Championship Outfit ' is to be found in all it's glory in the Foyer of the so called National Motorcycle Museum in the midlands !! There is fun to be had in the future !
Anyway enough of these ramblings other than to say that when Kathy was arranging to place a headstone on her dad's grave at Redcar, she introduced me to Bill Hocking as the man who bought her dad's last outfit. That is how I got to know Bill.
good luck.

[gvh]

From what my old man told me . Matty went off the road well before Mere Hairpin . The outfit took off ( the paddock is much lower than the road ) and actualy landed on Ralph Humbles tent. His family were luckily not around at the time. Dad was a solo racer at the time as was Ralph. Dad changed to sidecars at the end of the following season. The hospital had apparently left a dressing in the wound, resulting in Matty loosing his leg. Hence Ray Bell starting racing with help from Matty. Those Bells are no relation to us lot .

I'm told that the reason the outfit took off is a combination of Matty driving the outfit without the fairing and coming across a slower machine. Had the fairing been in place the accident may not have been so severe.
With respect to other topics relating to passenger handholds, maybe "Kipper" Layfield (I think that is correct) could be found/contacted, I understand he was a regular passenger at the time with Edgar Peacock.

[Katzen]

sidecarpeter, gvh,

Thanks for your posts. Finally getting back to "normal" after holidays and back to work on outfit next week..

Peter,
Great story about Cyril's '52 outfit. The older and creakier I get, the more I'm convinced that unraveling the histories
of these things may be the "fun" part of having them. Can relate to your "another '52 Cyril outfit" conundrum". Was in
exactly same position with a race car I was working on. Was going to avoid the issue and present mine as a "generic"
example because I'd kept some of the mods made along the way so it wasn't going to be completely original, anyway.
Sold the car last year, so the "problem" passed on to the new owner who is restoring it to original - and then there will
two of the XXXXX. Ironically, the proof that mine was the correct one came from the owner/presenter of the other one
(am convinced it was NOT intentional deception on their part, just a mix-up about 45years ago about which car - of the
same team - was which. Good luck with the "battle" with the NMM, if it comes to that..

Can also relate to the "priorities" situation, and agree with yours. The only way the outfit might go somewhere is down to
you. Your Mum, well, not so much...

Graham,
OK, more info/history - although it sort of "scuppers" what I thought we discovered when we stripped the paint from the
fairing and tank. Found some pretty deep gouges in both, and figured they were result of Matty's "off", but your comment
about his crashing without the fairing "shoots down" that theory. Actually, your comment makes sense ,as the fairing would
likely have been more heavily damaged if it had been fitted for the "flight" (even with the soft tent landing)..

And "Thanks", for the Graham "KIPPER" Layfield lead. Will post a "feeler" in the forum to see if he's still around/anyone
knows how to contact. With the generous input/help from the forum members replying to this thread may actually get
this thing restored!

"Thanks, guys!

[steve-e]

From Mark and Stan Dibben,

I have some more info for the chap in America (and others) who is re-building my Grandfather Cyril Smith's 58-9 outfit.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=52754&start=30
And I can inform them that the woman in the photograph sitting on the outfit is not Irene (his wife, my Grandmother) but a loyal fan who lived locally; there is a photo of her with the 55 outfit in the garden too.
Meanwhile, we have an outfit here, photo attached. Good fun!
All best cheers and Dad sends his best regards,
Mark

The outfit2.jpg (254.48 KiB) Viewed 7996 times

[Mark Dibben]

Ha ha, you beat me to it Steve, I was going to say that! I have the watch in the picture and now know where I get my love of jumpers and flat caps from too, lol. The Enfield goes very well for 27hp; Dad and I had an indicated 75mph out of it the other day and I think it'll go a bit quicker with a few more miles on. The top speed for the solo is 80 apparently.
I'm so pleased both the 52 and 58-9 machines still exist and are being restored. Gladdens my heart. And there is historical significance in this too. There are only three Norton World Champions, after all, Geoff Duke, Eric Oliver and Cyril Smith. I'd love to hear more news.
Following up on all the great posts on this topic, by a process of elimination, with the 58-9 frame in America, and the 52 frame here in the UK in private ownership, then that leaves 53 - 57 for the NMM bike. It isn't 53 or 54 as the sidecar wheel is the wrong size and the positioning of the handlebars isn't correct. Etc, etc! Both those bikes were sold to the Australian ace Bob Mitchell. (And the 54 one went back to Australia with Bob after he had used it with a fairing on for 55 and 56.)
It can't be either the 55 or 56 Cyril ones, either, as they were designed from the outset around sidecar petrol tanks alongside the engine in an 'open kneeler' arrangement with very rear-set footrests (they were strictly speaking still sitters), and wouldn't have accommodated a standard tank anyway. Below is a favorite photo of Cyril working on the 55 one; you can see the frame design and the engine cover, on which he lay, draped over the sidecar. He and my father came second in Spain and beat the BMWs at the Nurburgring with this outfit and they should have won the championship that year really... ah well. A little known fact about 55, they won the Hutchinson 100 race at Silverstone that year, and with it the prestigious Mellano Trophy. And so Cyril became the only sidecar driver to win it twice.
He refined the design for the 56 outfit, which was faster again; they broke their own lap record set the previous year at Spa. But the Norton lump definitely wasn't up to it at all by then!
Which leaves us with 57. It certainly looks right from the point of view of the tank and the handlebar locations on the forks, but it has a much simpler fairing on now if it is, and even possibly a different sidecar. Of course, these things are naturally chopped and changed around so much by people after the original owner sells them...
Unless anyone knows otherwise, or that actually the NMM one isn't one of my Grandfather's frames anyway??
Cheers - look forward very much to news on the rebuilds, and thanks again (all),
Mark

[Mark Dibben]

Ps. And I have just worked out this evening from reading Bob Mitchell's biography written by his son Mark (no namesake coincidence whatsoever by the way), that Cyril's 55 and 56 frames were the same. Just with a change of fairing and a change of sidecar. Cyril lent Bob the 55 sidecar (and an engine) to go onto the 54 chassis after Bob bent it at Floreffe in a big crash at the start of the 56 season. Plus, I have seen photos of the 56 outfit being raced in 57 at Silverstone, painted white instead of green. So obviously he sold that to someone in England. Anyway, between us all, we really have narrowed down the Cyril Smith outfits! Thanks so much, Mark

[Katzen]

Mark, Got Steve's note about your post ("Thanks" Steve), and was about 3/4 of the way through a reply when it disappeared. I fear it's gone as i can't find it anywhere, but if by some chance it did get to you, please let me know and I'll finish it. If you got nothing from me, please advise, and I'll rewrite/try again. In the meantime, "Thank you" for your post/pics (Hi Stan - peeking over the tank of the RE?) and interest. Katzen

[Billbo]

Greetings. We have a few pics of Cyril Smith on ttracepics.com I will see if I can find any short-circuit pics of Cyril with he machine as well, looks like we have a couple from Silverstone 1959